Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

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Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

Post by Likuidwar » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:45 pm

1. Character name, Server
Liquidwar-Lightning'sBlade (BRM)
Likuidwar-Lightning'sBlade (Prot Paladin)
Melo-Lightning'sBlade (DH)
Likuidbear-Lightning'sBlade (Guardian Druid)

2. Class, Race, and Spec (and Artifact Level)
Liquidwar-Lightning'sBlade (Brewmaster Monk) - Neck level 67
Likuidwar-Lightning'sBlade (Prot Paladin) - Neck level 66
Melo-Lightning'sBlade (DH) - Neck level 65
Likuidbear-Lightning'sBlade (Guardian Druid) - Neck level 64 (65 this week)

3. Link to an Armory profile, and an explanation of anything that may not be readily apparent from your Armory profile (alternate sets of gear, currently PvP-specced, etc.) ... /liquidwar ... /likuidwar ... blade/melo
(Melo - mostly has M+ spec'd gear - Prepping him for 8.3 giving coming BrM nerfs) ... likuidbear
(Likuidbear - working on essences - will be neck lvl 65 this week)

4. What are your usual playing hours? Are there days/times when you are consistently unavailable? Inform us of your daily work/school schedule, what time do you get home from work/school, and what time must you be in bed for the next day. Are you able to make our raid times in general? Is this availability going to change within the next few months, or with a change in Semester (if applicable)?

With current guild had 100% raid attendance through progression and mythic prep. I'm free M-F 6pm - 1am EST. Weekends I'm around a lot - generally in the evening until 2am. For this entire expansion, I believe I've only missed 1 raid due to a work conference.

5. Discuss your prior endgame raiding experience. Specify your experience with Heroic/Mythic in previous content as well as your experience in the current tier.

Current tier I'm 8/8M. Initially started the tier as a Prot Paladin (inter <Imba> as a Prot Paladin main). As a multi class tank, I had 3 other tanks relatively ready. Once we finished Ashvane guild asked me to swap to BrM due to the strengths on upcoming bosses. I did swap to BrM main and beat about 1/2 the guild to neck level 65 on both tanks. As a guild main tank, I understand some bosses may require a strength one tank has to offer over another. For this reason, I keep 3 tanks prep'd for the new raid tier. For 8.3 I'm looking to have 4 tanks prep'd moving into the tier (Brewmaster, Prot Paladin, DH, and Guardian Druid). Prior to this tier I was with <Faceless> for first 2 tiers as an officer trying to make that guild work. I really wanted to push progression and raiding with <Imba> for all if this tier.

Prior tiers I was 9/9M BoD. Light progression first two tiers as I was with a group of friends trying to make a guild work as an officer.

6. Why do you want to leave your current guild? Why do you want to join us? Specifically, what interests you in our band of merry idiots?

Current guild raid times are 9pm to 1am. When I initially joined the guild they were 4 days per week at 9pm to midnight. They consolidated a day and added an hour. I did not want to step out of the guild at the beginning of a tier as their main tank because of raid hour changes. So I moved forward even with raid hours that were not optimal. Reason for leaving is looking for better raid hours. Right now I have not time on the back side of raid as we stop at 1am. I'm looking forward to finding something I can call home for a while. <Imba> raid times are pretty grueling - certainly doable for 1 tier, but multiple tiers I believe 9pm to 1am would wear on me. Especially as someone who focuses on keeping multiple tanks ready to go.

7. Give us some info on your class knowledge and self performance analysis in this section:
7a. What resources and practices do you use to keep up with your class and maximizing your DPS/HPS/Surivability?

For this tier, my co-tank was a DK that was spec'd maximum DPS. For this reason, I spent most of the tier in double defensive trinkets, gems and enchants. I did most of the heavy lifting on tanking and he did off tanking with focus on DPS. Worked out relatively well.

I stream the raid (usually I'm the only viewer) but in between pulls I'm often clipping deaths (especially mine) to understand what I could have done differently. I also live log and have logs up on second monitor. In logs, I'm looking at how damage is coming in, the damage type (for BrM this may change our talents - extended stagger or dampen harm). I'm also often playing with essences (you can see this a lot in my Prot Paladin logs as I'm working on how to soak as many stacks as possible). A good example of this is on my Prot Paladin logs on Ashvane you can see me go maximum Versatility and Mastery to mitigate as much damage as possible. This constant swapping led us to quicker prog on the boss. Initially the guild had our DK soaking in the 3 tank strategy. Understanding mechanics of my class and how to best gear it for the damage helped us on that kill.

7b. What fights in the current tier do you swap Talents and Traits to something different than the norm (if at all)? What do you swap and why? Feel free to list on a boss per boss basis.
For BrM we generally don't have much variety on talents. Our general talent swap is Bob and Weave vs Dampen Harm. For me, I took Dampen Harm on Azshara to mitigate some of the longer rotations I had with the magic damage. For instance, I had the boss after 2nd decrees - which mean i had the boss to 60+ stacks. Taking dampen harm here allowed me the space to make the transition if Azshara got a final Arcane Jolt. During this phase I had to mostly self mitigate and healing from beacon. I was LOS most of this phase based on how we positioned the boss in the raid.

On Queens Court, I also took dampen harm to help with tanking zealous eruption outside the bubble.

7c. How do you analyze your performance on a new fight and figure out how/what you can improve on next week? Don't just say you use logs and compare to others of your class - what specifically are you looking for when you have a good/bad parse?

For me, during the tank swap (Moving from Prot Pal to BrM) was a very high increase in APM. BrM has multiple buttons that are pushed concurrently with each other. Logs are a given - understanding where you can get more damage, pushing timers on fights using transcendence, knowing when to hold cool downs, etc. is a given. For me, during raid, clipping my stream to look at what happened prior to death is vital to success. Understanding what cool downs did I have up, what did I miss or not use, could I have health stoned, called for an external, positioned differently, etc. Also raid feedback is extremely important as a tank. Fine tuning positioning to optimize up-time on boss is the best thing we can do for raid dps. Listening to people's problems in discord and understanding what you may be able to do to help fix those problems is important. Azshara really show cased this, if you look at our logs over the long transition, me staying full mitigation and heal spec (and not going into Cyclo, crit gems/enchants to chase parses) really helped land the kill. The self sustain and defensiveness allowed our healers to keep the raid top'd more on a fight where life is sometimes razor thin.

8. Please include your character log report showcasing your performance on the relevant bosses of the tier. If your logs are private, please change your Warcraftlogs login and list the username/password here so we can access your logs. If you aren't comfortable listing it publicly, please PM it to Palin privately on these forums. Please remember to change your WCL login again a few days later after we've reviewed your application. ... /liquidwar
Above is Brewmaster overview. I believe all the logs should be public. Bosses 5-8 I swapped to BrM main for the remainder of the tier. It did take me a couple bosses to get my legs under me, fix some key binds and get back to a level that was consistent with my Paladin. Going into TEP, I was mostly focused on my Paladin play as that my my main going into a new guild. Moving into 8.3 I'm working on making sure the gap between my main tank and "off tanks" is much closer than this tier. I've already identified that as a fault and something I need to fix. (And I will spending a lot of time over the next few months closing that gap to be in the best place possible for 8.3) - especially given the BrM nerfs.
On Ashvane I was the soaker.

9. Of the above logs, please do a quick analysis of what fights you did well on, what went wrong on certain fights, etc. Use this chance to explain any context behind good/bad logs.

First and foremost, my co-tank was a BDK going FULL dps spec... crit gems, benthic pieces etc. Understanding this, I focused on max mitigation this tier running double defensive trinkets, defensive gems and enchants. I think it's important that tanks compliment each other. We did not have any "dps" walls on encounters that would be cause for me to spec differently (certainly would have if that was the case).

I think the 2 fights that really stand out is Ashvane and Azshara.

Ashvane, I had to really convince my new guild (new at that point) to let me do the soaks. I said Prot Paladins are by far the best for soaks. Maxing Versatility and Mastery would lead to huge mitigation in the dot dmg and the spell block would be really insane in helping the healing throughput. Obviously the spell immunities are a huge help as well. We spent a few days with our BDK doing soaks but when we swapped to me soaking, progression happened much quicker.

Azshara - working with the raid and raid leads on some of the nuanced positioning of the boss versus the runes. On the last few raids nights, staying up late, diving into logs and discussing the strategy for the tanks help pushed progression. Also you can see on that fight where I kept swapping between Bob and Weave and Dampen Harm to see what was best. One thing with tanks is you can't just look at specs and builds in logs and go with it. Because every guild has a different tank rotation (who is tanking what damage at what time and what raid damage is paired with tank damage) this may change from tank team to tank team. I think understanding that my co-tank was doing monster dps, it meant that I needed to focus on mitigation and not chase damage meters in order to progress.

Zaq'ul - Zaq''ul is a fight with a pretty tough tank transition between tentacles and pulling the boss to get the punctured darkness. My claim to fame isn't perfection. I certainly struggled a bit when the tentacles went over the Maddening Eruption zone. (Hopefully this doesn't disqualify me - just trying to be honest.) This is where having my stream open and simply asking questions helped progress the boss. I had the humility to raise my hand after a raid night and see if I was missing something. The raid lead helped me with positioning and that issue was fixed after our discussion. The fix was simple, i was pulling the boss to the middle of the zone instead of to one side giving me room to move when the first tentacle hit. Not sure why I didn't pick up on that sooner - but I think the big take away here is, if I'm not seeing something or getting something, I'm not afraid to ask for help. I'm not perfect and I realize that. But once we figure out a fix and plan of a attack, I do execute consistently.

10. Can your PC handle WoW at high effects (Lust, Scorp Room, etc.)?

Yes - no issues. I stream as well with no issues.

11. Please include a SS of your raiding UI. IF A KEYBINDING IS NOT SHOWN ON YOUR FRAME, PLEASE EXPLAIN AND list any relevant keybinds not shown in the screenshot. If you're using something like a Razer Naga, please explain that. We are going to question if your keybind for a personal defensive is something like "9" - so help us understand why that is.

This is the video to our recent Azshara kill. You can see key binds. For all my tanks, mitigation is generally on 4/5, F, V, G, Shift G... DPS cooldown is generally Shift C - Azeriate is on C. Everything is fairly centralized 1-4, shift 1-4, Q, E, R, T, etc. If you care too much, as you go through my progression videos, you can also see me making some small subtle changes to my UI as well. Moving different things around, creating the yellow bars under my character to help with dps. Just another thing to do to help improvement.

Make sure we can see everything that pops up in a raid, meaning take the SS in combat in LFR or something of the like so we can see your boss mods, timer positioning, WeakAuras, raid frames, etc.

12. Tell us a bit about yourself. Age, gender, work/school, hobbies, etc. Add anything else you feel is pertinent.

I'm 37 and works as an Operations Director in a 2 mil sq ft mall. I've also been a college professor and teach graduate business. I have an MBA and I spent 9 years in the Marine Corps (2002-2011). I'm extremely patient and down to earth. I'm do not rage and have no issues taking even the toughest feedback. I think my greatest strengths is my persistence in becoming better, ability to ask questions, and consistency.

13. Out-of-game contact information - Discord tag, ID, etc. Some way we can contact you besides these forums.
Likuidwar#1722 - BNet
Likuidwar#8545 - Discord
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Re: Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

Post by Foojeezy » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:30 pm

Hey brother, thank you for taking the time to fill out our application, we'll be reviewing and posting any questions!
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Re: Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

Post by Likuidwar » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:46 am

Happy to answer any questions you have.
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Re: Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

Post by Xen » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:38 pm

Hey Likuid, I'm curious as to why you don't have any Benthic pieces in any of your logs. Do you just not have them on any of your tanks? Or have just been really unlucky with them. At this point in the tier, bar bad luck I would've expected at least one of your tanks has a few of the socketed pieces, as some of them provide a noticeable amount of healing and damage.
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Re: Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

Post by Likuidwar » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:05 pm

Xen - thanks this is a really good question. First I will state, my co-tank is a DK that was geared and spec'd 100% full dps (crit gems and enchants, double dps trinket, full benthic gear). So initial reasoning was to focus on creating as much effective health and damage mitigation as possible. Felt that two tanks going full dps was probably a bit overkill. One thing I can say, as I have experience both as a GM and RL, people seem to get "Orange parse theory" stuck in their had - that the only way you add value to the raid is if you have orange parses. While I think this may lean true for most dps situations, for tank and healing roles, this doesn't always equate. (I do have benthic bracers and belt should i have needed them - socketed).

First I'll outline my tanking philosophy (which is part of the answer) - then get into some log breakdowns to show you examples of my reasoning and why I made the choices I did. The gains and loses of those choices. Essentially I'll show you what I gave up for the slight loss in dps. High level, a fair amount of the decision was made based on the class and gearing choices of my co-tank.

First set of logs, going to compare our 1st Azshara kill to yours - so I'll be comparing my logs to Monkas (I will preface this that in no way am I insinuating I'm a better tank - but I think the two logs do a nice job showing the gearing differences).

First and foremost, here is the summary comparison in stats: ... pe=summary

Items to note in this summary are:
My ilvl is 446 vs Monkas 441 (largely driven by benthic gear)
Both tanks are double defensive trinket
I have 1800 more stamina
270ish more agility
1100+ more versatility

Monkas has 500 more crit and about 150 more mastery

Next lets break down the healing: ... pe=healing

Not to go through every line, but lets note a couple of items:
Our choice in edicts is very different - I choose physical dmg he Monkas Sea Witch (magic damage) - This lead to close to 1800 more HPS on my end
Null barrier (scales greatly with versatility) - I'm doing 600 HPS more with null barrier (and effectively mitigating more magic damage)
All of Monkas stacked crit, led to only 500 more HPS in celestial healing
My gift of the ox healing was 800 hps more

You can see most of our progression pulls, I'm running close to or over 30k hps. I'm significantly self sustaining allowing all 3 healers more dps up time (or in theory they should have more globals to dps). 2 vs 3 heals - so hard to say. Just comparing shamans, our shaman did 900 more dps.

In the end, gearing choices led to an 1800 increased HPS on my end and 1.3m overall effective healing.

From a raw DTPS side, lets look at our first Zaq'ul kill. ... mage-taken

This log really shows the difference in how we are spec'd from a stat perspective. My 1100 versatility is driving about 8k less DTPS.

I don't think this does much to "solve" anything, but I think it illustrates the give and take in gearing differences.

Overall, me being tankier allows my co-tank to spec full dps, I can pick up some of the heavier lifting on the boss, more HPS. Our raid kill strategies are a bit different with 2 heal vs 3 heal. Our tanks did 53k dps together while yours did 40k dps. I think the gear strategy overall worked for us. We didn't see a loss - and in general, during progression I try to maximize effective health over dps. Had there been an encounter here where dps was extremely tight, certainly could have equipped some benthic gear, cyclo and gem/enchant different and slide into dps. In the end Monkas did 1M more dmg to queen Azshara and I did 1.3m more healing - neither of which would have been the deciding factor in either of our kills.

The whole idea of benthic gear leads into some really nice theory discussion - especially in the realm of tanks.

A notable side discussion as well, more as a overall guild discussion, is would you rather have someone with multiple classes geared and ready for a tier, or just one. In my case, I had 3 tanks ready for this tier which allowed me to swap to Prot Pal main to Monk main with no raid interruption. As stated, I beat about 1/2 the guild to 65 on both tanks.

Certainly, I will admit it took a few weeks to get my feet under me on the monk (as far as damage goes) - I do recognize that as an opportunity and am actively working on all 4 tanks in closing the skill gap. Plenty of time between now and 8.3 to run all tanks through mythic TEP, M+ and Heroics to work on that gap.
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Re: Likuidwar: Multi-class Tank (BrM Main)

Post by Palin » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:25 pm

Hi Liquid, we appreciate your in depth response and patience as we deliberate.

Ultimately we like your analytical approach and I generally agree with your "Orange parse theory" approach - tanks who get all oraanges usually are mongos. However we feel like you're missing some forest through the trees things even with survability. Saying you did more healing on Zaqul when your trinket is set to Physical for example is where reality vs the numbers don't intersect. On Zaqul and Azshara your dangerous points as a Monk will never be Physical damage, so having a trinket take a small bit off Stagger every 40s is just padding tbh vs actually having effective absorbs vs Jolts or Manic Dread/Tether combos. Utilizing Savior for <100k healing over any DPS trait to help push the boss is also silly, no matter how offensive your co-tank was going. Going Conc Flame over Conflict Major on Zaqul also doesn't make a ton of sense from both a DPS standpoint and a GCD standpoint if main tanking.

Having multiple characters you can play is great, but that's kind of the expectation at this point in prog anyways. It also doesn't guarantee that you're amazing at all off them, so that can't be a main selling point. In fact at some point (usually after the 3rd or 4th week) its pretty obvious what the meta will be on each fight and what's cheeseable - not much real point in gearing up Bear or Vengence this tier for example. The effort is commendable but at some point you worry about becoming a jack of all trades but master of none.

Unfortunately at this time we've gone a different direction with our tank search and will be passing on your application. We'll keep it on file and if something changes in the near future we'll be sure to reach out to you if a position opens up and we find ourselves interested. Thanks again for your time and I wish you the best of luck in your search for a new home! Take care.

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